Tags
When Nicodemus came to the Lord in the evening hours, the Lord “cut to the quick” and addressed, presumably, what was on Nicodemus’ mind. He told him that one must be born again (John 3:3). Nicodemus found this perplexing, so he inquired further. Jesus explained there are two “components” to man’s new birth; there is the human response and then the heavenly response. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:, ESV). Thus, to be born again is to be born from above. This passage clearly teaches that one must be born of water (baptized) in order to see (enter) the kingdom of God. One Greek scholar said as much, “…it is clear that John intended his readers to understand the expression as a reference to Christian baptism and the resulting gift of the Holy Spirit” (Mounce 396, italics his). The only reason people refuse to accept the obvious meaning and application of the passage is because of a predisposition against the necessity of baptism in relation to salvation—something the Lord put in place when He said, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:15-16, ESV). RT
etsop95 
That is so true. The Pre-Nicene Christians also believed Jesus’ words referred to baptism. I can share some quotations from them on request.
I do believe baptism is important but some people are on their death bed when the receive Jesus as Lord and can not be baptized. If at their dying
breath they receive Jesus as Lord and Savior I do believe they are saved.
Jesus can only be “received” in harmony with the plan he specified, and he said we must be born of water and the Spirit. We cannot undo what Jesus said by envisioning what seem to us like extenuating circumstances. What about the man who would have believed in Jesus next week, had he lived, but he dies of a heart attack today? Could we say he was saved without believing? No. Likewise, if Jesus said we must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom, how can we start talking like there are exceptions? Who are we to allow an exception that is not allowed by the language Jesus used? Especially, since Jesus’ words will judge us (John 12:48) and we are explicitly told not to add to nor subtract from Scripture (Rev. 22:18-19). God can help a man find the truth if he wants it, and in time to obey it. Most churches compromise (or just rewrite) what Jesus taught, but that is always the wrong approach. Baptism is not just important, it is vital, since it is the event in which sins are washed away, the soul is regenerated, and the Spirit begins to indwell. It is all tied together. The Spirit does not come without baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Thus, a man on his deathbed who finally understands Jesus is the Christ still is lost in his sins until he is baptized, and he is not born from above until the Spirit is poured out on him, which does not happen until baptism.
Weylan, I agree with your high view of baptism. It is a necessary ingredient to salvation. However, I would like to share that that faith is greater than baptism and mercy is greater than judgment. Faith results in baptism and not the other way around. Faith produces baptism while baptism cannot produce faith. When it comes to exceptions, God is known for revealing to us many, many exceptions through the Scriptures. Why? Because God’s mercy triumphs over judgment (Jam 2:3). Because mercy triumphs over judgment and because faith is greater than baptism, I believe that if a person has a faith that drives them to be baptized (even when they are physically unable to do so), then they have saving faith.
To me, this is most clearly seen in the story of Abraham. God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac. Because he did so, God credited him with righteousness. However, did Abraham actually sacrifice Isaac? He did not! God looked at Abraham’s faith and saw that Abraham, the father of faith, was committed to God’s commands. Even though Abraham did not actually do what God commanded, God still rewarded him. So just as Abraham did not actually fulfill God’s command to sacrifice Isaac, he was still counted righteous because of his faith. In the same way, people who are not physically able to fulfill God’s command to be baptized can still be counted righteous because of their faith.
If a man is hears the gospel in a deep, dark prison and develops faith that drives them to be baptized (and this kind of thing happens today), are they eternally lost because they are physically unable to leave their cell? If they are eternally lost because of that situation, then judgment has triumphed over mercy. I do not believe this is a proper or truthful view of God.
Xyhelm, contrary to what you say, you do not “agree with my high view of baptism,” since your view admits of exceptions. Jesus said this: “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Either that is true or false. If true, then there are no exceptions.
We did not establish the requirements, and none of us has the right to lower them. It is easy to envision what we would consider hard case scenarios that tug on the heart. And, by the time you end up explaining things, Jesus did not tell the truth, since you believe that, without being born of water and the Spirit, at least some people today can still enter the kingdom (if they are sick enough, or behind bars, etc.). That contradicts what the Lord said. It should always tip us off that we are mistaken when we adopt a position contradicting the plain words of Jesus.
You suggest Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac as an analogy, and you say “Even though Abraham did not actually do what God commanded, God still rewarded him.” That’s not accurate. Abraham did all he could do in obedience to the point where God intervened to stop the knife already in his hand. It would be similar to God telling me to observe the Lord’s Supper on Sunday, but then Jesus returns on Saturday, making it impossible. God, who gave Abraham the order, is the God who stopped his hand from carrying it out. It was no extenuating circumstance.
More than that, Abraham did not live under the gospel of Christ and he was not a Christian. At dispute here is how a person becomes a Christian. You are outside of Christ, outside the kingdom, outside of forgiving grace, as long as you have not been immersed into Christ. See Acts 2:38, Rom. 6:1-6; Gal. 3:27; 1 Pet. 3:21; etc. Once your are born of water and Spirit, you are a Christian and, by faith, have access to God’s grace (Rom. 5:2).
Faith starts by hearing the word (Rom. 10:17), and it should lead me to the water. But, until baptism, faith has not obeyed to the point where God said forgiveness is granted.
Jesus said, “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” He also said some things that caused his own disciples to walk away from him. The curious phenomenon today is that there are people claiming to be his disciples who do not believe what he said.
If you are correct, then “unless” in John 3:5 does not really mean “unless,” and God will make exceptions that contradict the actual inspired text. I would urge your rethinking that position.
Finally, I would say it is possible for people to get themselves in situations where their future obedience is not possible. This is what you’re trying to avoid, but surely you yourself would agree. For example, someone fries his brain on illegal drugs, ending up in a coma from which he will not awake. Or, he is conscious, but insane due to drug abuse. How is he going to become a Christian? You see, it eventually becomes too late. When Jesus returns, it is too late for everyone. When an individual dies, it is too late for that individual. When you lose the capacity to think, it is too late. When you sear your conscience so that it quits working, it is too late. Having said that, I believe God’s promise that anyone who wants the truth can find it. There is a timeliness to eternal matters.
Weylan, thanks for replying back! I’m thankful you are willing to discuss this with me. May God be with our mutual “iron-sharpening.”
You said: “Jesus said this: “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Either that is true or false. If true, then there are no exceptions.”
Be careful. This is called proof-texting. If I were to share with you Mark 10:11-12, I could say that there is no exception to divorce and remarriage. That is anyone who remarries commits adultery. However, Matt 19:9 add the exception: fornication. If I were to take Mark 10:11-12 alone, then I would be wrong. If we were to take John 3:5 alone, then we would also be wrong. And if I am contracting what Jesus said in John 3:5, them Matthew is contracting what Mark said. Instead of playing this game, we must look at all of Scripture to find the truth. God forbid that we proof-text our beliefs.
You said: “Abraham did all he could do in obedience to the point where God intervened to stop the knife already in his hand. It would be similar to God telling me to observe the Lord’s Supper on Sunday, but then Jesus returns on Saturday, making it impossible.”
I agree with you here, but this exact argument proves my point. When two people are on their way to the baptistry and are killed in a car accident, then death intervened. They were doing all they could do in obedience to the point where death intervened, making it impossible. Or is death an exception in such a case?
You said: “More than that, Abraham did not live under the gospel of Christ and he was not a Christian. At dispute here is how a person becomes a Christian.”
To separate Abraham from the gospel is a cop-out. Have you not read that Abraham is the father of us all (Rom 4:16)!? In fact, read all of Rom 4 and you see that Abraham must be part of this conversion because he established faith which establishes salvation. In the same way, you cannot add a rule saying that is is only about becoming a Christian. How is it that we become a Christian? There are a lot of ingredients such as baptism, confessing the Lord, belief, and repentance. But the aspect of salvation that ties them all together is faith. Please to restrict our conversion to such a narrow approach. As I said in my first point, we must weigh all of what God has breathed. I would appreciate we can both do this.
You said: “Faith starts by hearing the word (Rom. 10:17), and it should lead me to the water. But, until baptism, faith has not obeyed to the point where God said forgiveness is granted.”
Generally speaking, I agree. This is taught by James (in chapter 2). Yet, when he shows that faith must be accompanied with obedience (including baptism), James appeals to Abraham’s non-sacrifice of Isaac (Jam 2:21), saying that Abraham sacrificed Isaac on the altar! Yet, did he? No! How can James say Abraham did something which he didn’t do? It’s because Abraham had saving faith. He never was able to complete that faith, but he had the faith that saves. In the same way, when someone has the kind of faith that drives them to be baptized but something beyond their control hinders them, that does not negate their saving faith.
You said: “If you are correct, then “unless” in John 3:5 does not really mean “unless,” and God will make exceptions that contradict the actual inspired text. I would urge your rethinking that position.”
Thank you for saying this. This is a real danger today that we should all warn each other about. Thanks for challenging me on reading the text for what it says. I hope to give you the same warning and challenge that you do not proof-text this verse. Let’s find Truth together! 🙂
You said: “Finally, I would say it is possible for people to get themselves in situations where their future obedience is not possible.”
I agree. All the situations you listed, those people are as good as dead. Salvation/Faith requires the mind. However, God does have the power to break a seared conscience.
Last two points:
The Scriptures command baptism. But you say that unless someone is physically immersed (regardless of what kind of faith in Christ they have) they will go to Hell. Did you know that the Scriptures also command that we be holy as God is holy (1Pet 1:16)? Just like how our bodies MUST be under the water, must we also be perfectly holy and without sin as God is before our death? OR, is God most concerned with our faith which should drive us to the water of baptism and should drive us to be holy as God is holy (which I believe to be impossible in this life)?
About exceptions, you believe that God doesn’t make exceptions unless that exception is in Scripture? That’s not how God has dealt with humity in the past. There have been cases were God has made exceptions for His commandments which He did not previously give to His people. You see, God is a God of exceptions because He is a God of mercy. He looks at faith and grants mercy to those everyone who has a healthy, saving faith.
Blessings and so forth!
Weylan, I followed your username to your profile. I see that we have FHU in common. 🙂 Also, greetings from Lewisville! 😀
Xyhelm, I don’t know who you are, and I wish you well, but I do hope you did not learn such things at FHU. You are free with the pejorative terms, such as “proof-text” and “cop-out,” but your position is distilled to this:
Jesus said you must be born of water and Spirit.
Xyhelm says you may not have to be born of water and Spirit or, in some cases, you definitely do not have to be born of water and Spirit.
When I stand on Jesus’ words, you act as though I’m the one with the problem.
What you are saying is that baptism is not essential to salvation because you can be born of the Spirit without being born of water. That is your position.
Now, if you have the right to treat one ingredient of salvation as nonessential, then why not any or all of them? For all you know (given your approach to Scripture), God may, after all, save the sincere Muslim. For all you know (given your approach to Scripture), God may save the faithless man who died as he was beginning to question his skepticism. There is no end to imagining circumstances and imposing on God what we think he would or (ought to) do.
The discussion of verses on marriage does not help your case. We agree on the principle that you must take everything the Bible says on a given subject in order to have all the truth on it. But, taking the gospel in its total context, there is no one in the New Testament who ever became a Christian without being born of water and the Spirit. You can produce no example and no textual support for the idea that anyone in the New Testament ever became a Christian without water and Spirit. So, it does you no good to try to formulate a 21st century hard case that demands we compromise what the gospel teaches on this vital subject.
Eph. 5:5 says that no fornicator has an inheritance in God’s kingdom. Is that true, false, or just mostly true? Given the way you treat John 3:5, you should be able to say that Eph. 5:5 admits of exceptions, after all. In which case, the verse simply does not mean what it says. Given your approach, perhaps some practicing fornicators are heaven bound, after all.
I realize you are down on what you call “proof-texting,” but God did say to prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21), and the standard of proof is Scripture–not an imagined worse-case scenario, or deathbed setup to try to undermine the force of Jesus’ words because we imagine God would do whatever we would do in a given situation.
In a scene of judging his people, God told them, “you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you” (Psa. 50:21, ESV).
Is faith greater than baptism? Yes, I did learn that while at FHU. I was in the Romans-Galatians class, which was when I truly studied Romans 4 for the first time. I wasn’t exactly taught it from a professor, but I learned it when studying Gen 22, Rom 4, and Jam 2.
—
You said: “When I stand on Jesus’ words, you act as though I’m the one with the problem.”
I believe so. When one reads the Bible with tunnel vision (proof-texting), it is easier to come to the wrong conclusions. Context is important and so is considering the whole of Scripture. When one reads any verse (including John 3:5) alone without considering what the Scriptures have to say, it can be very dangerous.
—
You said: “What you are saying is that baptism is not essential to salvation because you can be born of the Spirit without being born of water.”
I did not say that. Do you normally speak for those with whom you disagree? When I said that I share your high view of baptism, did you choose not to believe it? Do you assume that I believe God will save the sincere Muslim or the faithless man? Talk about pejorative terms!! Weylan, I want to have a healthy conversation. God forbid that I try to put words in your mouth. Please do not do that to me. It’s not Christ-like. Do you want to know what I believe? Please ask. If you continue to assume the worst about me and do not try to understand my position which is from the Scriptures, then there is no point in continuing sharpening one another’s iron.
No, baptism is essential for salvation! What I am saying is that faith is greater than baptism. If someone has the faith that says, “I want to be baptized right now!” And they are killed on the way to the baptistry (or any large amount of water), then does your position say that it is their fault that they were not baptized and it is their fault that they went to Hell? (Please let me know if that is not right. I used to believe that way but have repented.) I am saying that faith saves, a faith that produces baptism, and not baptism only. Saving faith drives us to obey Christ in every command. Exactly like Abraham, if something beyond our control keeps us from fulfilling every command of Christ, God looks at our faith and saves us by faith. God commanded that we be holy as He is holy. I believe prefect holiness (like God’s holiness) is impossible while in this life, but if we have the faith that drives us toward that kind of holiness, then we are saved by faith.
—
You said: “The discussion of verses on marriage does not help your case.”
I can see how you can say that when you do not see what you are doing in this conversion. When you say we “must take everything the BIble says on a given subject in order to have all the truth on it,” then I ask that you put your money where your mouth is. If we must take all of Scripture, then let me use Abraham, because his example of faith is the basis for our faith in becoming a Christian. As Paul said, “Abraham is the father of us all.” Please note that whenever the NEW TESTAMENT talks about saving faith (which is part of becoming a Christian), they talk about Abraham. To say we cannot use Abraham is exactly the same thing as saying that fornication matters nothing to marriage, divorce, and remarriage. Both are proof-texting.
—
Fornication. You said: “Eph. 5:5 says that no fornicator has an inheritance in God’s kingdom. Is that true, false, or just mostly true?”
Are there any exceptions to this truth from Paul? Has a fornicator ever inherited God’s kingdom? Are there any exceptions? We must ask the Scriptures, and I don’t know of any. The closest thing I can think of is when Paul says, “And such were some of you” (1Cor 6:11). Only those who have repented from fornication are able to inherit the Kingdom of God. Only those who are no longer fornicators can be saved. From all the Scripture I have studied, I know of no exception. Have I answered your question truthfully in your view?
—
Proof-texting. You said: “God did say to prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21), and the standard of proof is Scripture”
I totally agree! When I say “proof–texting,” I mean the practice of taking a text of Scripture (usually out of context) and developing a belief or a whole theology from it alone. Health and wealth preachers do it with Mal 3:10. I used to believe in a theology of baptism only which did not include faith, and I proof-texted verses like John 3:5. Today, I look back at myself and accuse myself of legalism and being without mercy. Please know that I will not view you in that way. I want to share the truth with you and pray that you will see what God has to say about His nature from what He has said in His Word. If you will allow me to (1) use the example of Abraham, (2) ask you to examine more Scriptures than just Jesus’ truthful statement in John 3:5, and (3) share with you more significant examples where God has given exceptions in the past which prove how mercy triumphs over judgment, then I would love to keep sharing all that with you.
God bless, brother.
Perhaps “proof-texting” is simply taking a position with which “Xyhelm” disagrees. You are mistaken if you think my whole belief on the plan of salvation rests on John 3:5, but that verse does serve as a true statement from Jesus on the subject, admitting of no exception. You can multiply words, but your position is still one of compromise, confusion and contradiction.
You write, “No, baptism is essential for salvation! What I am saying is that faith is greater than baptism. If someone has the faith that says, “I want to be baptized right now!” And they are killed on the way to the baptistry (or any large amount of water), then does your position say that it is their fault that they were not baptized and it is their fault that they went to Hell? (Please let me know if that is not right. I used to believe that way but have repented.)”
So, you say baptism is essential, but you actually believe you can be saved on the way to the baptistery without being baptized, and you even admit that you have repented for believing that baptism was necessary and would, therefore, cost someone’s soul if he were not baptized!
According to you, baptism is not essential. If you deny that is your view (even though you keep admitting it), just answer this:
True or False: It is possible today for a sinner to go to heaven without water baptism.
You said: “You can multiply words, but your position is still one of compromise, confusion and contradiction.”
I can see that we are not having a civilized conversation. A wise person listens to instruction. A wise person test all things and holds on to the truth. You insult my “many” words when all I am trying to do is multiply Scriptures, but you won’t have it. I want to share with you more about what the Scriptures have to say to faith, baptism, and salvation. Why won’t you listen?
Please tell how my position is compromise. It is not. I let Scriptures explain Scriptures.
Please tell how my position is confusion. All is made clear when considering every Scripture.
Please tell how my position is contradiction. Really, how is it? For I have Scriptures that support my position. If my position is a contradiction, then the Scriptures themselves are a contradiction. Will you please try to understand what I have today? Or is your conscience already seared when it comes to what we are discussing?
—
You said: “True or False: It is possible today for a sinner to go to heaven without water baptism.”
I’m really not the one to ask. God is the judge, not me. But because you asked my opinion, here it is. There are multiple ways to answer your question. If one looks at the thief on the cross or Abraham, then the answer is yes. If one looks at a person who is a “sinner” who is living in sin, the answer is no. If one looks at a person who is a “sinner” who has been forgiven by God, the answer is yes. If one looks at a person after Pentecost, the answer is no. But if one looks at a person who comes to faith that would do ANYTHING for Christ but is physically unable to confess Christ to someone or be baptized, then the answer is yes based on the Scriptures. Do you want to see the Scriptures?
I want to plead with you to think about the following verses from Proverbs and ask that you not close your ears and eyes to what I have to share. I haven’t shared everything I know from the Scriptures yet because I don’t know if there will be any benefit to it.
“The one who gives an answer before he listens–this is foolishness and disgrace for him.” Prov 18:13.
“The first to state his case seem right until another comes and cross-examines him.” Prov 18:17.
After taking umbrage at my categorizing your view as confusion and contradiction, you proceed to demonstrate your confusion and contradiction yet again, with astonishing lack of self-awareness.
I gave a true/false proposition on whether it were possible today for a sinner to go to heaven without water baptism. You answered both YES and NO. That is contradiction. To begin, you ignored the statement’s wording, since you started talking about Abraham and the thief on the cross. The proposition purposefully contained the word “today.” Then you stated that the answer is NO for “a person after Pentecost” (which includes all of us today, do you not realize?). And then you said the answer is YES for somebody today unable to be baptized. Go learn what a contradiction is, and what the law of non-contradiction is. A precise proposition cannot be both true and false. To affirm logical contradiction is irrational, and certainly unscriptural. God is not the author of confusion, when in Scripture, philosophy, mathematics, science, etc. Nothing you say will undo this insuperable problem you have created for yourself (other than to abandon the view, which is what you ought do).
Jesus said no one can enter the kingdom without being born of water and the Spirit.
“Xyhelm” says someone can enter the kingdom without being born of water and the Spirit.
Those two statements are contradictory. They CANNOT both be true, and I know which one is.
I missed “today” in your statement. Sorry about that; you can disregard by answers pre-Pentecost.
You continually insult me as if I don’t know what a contradiction is. If you were asked, “If someone today divorces their spouse and marries another, is that sin?” Would you give two different answers? …one if fornication was involved and one if fornication was not involved?
You continue to ignore (at least refuse to try to understand) what I am saying from the Scriptures. Since your conscience is already seared on this… since you are proof-texting the Scriptures and do not desire that I teach you more plainly… since (from my perspective) you seem to be only concerned with winning an argument instead of gaining a brother in Christ, I can see we are getting nowhere. If your mind is already closed to the entirety Scriptures, then there is nothing I can do but pray that God will soften your heart to be open-minded and a better example of Jesus in the future.
As someone who want to be your friend, who wants to sharpen iron with you, and who wants to be your brother in Christ, I want to leave you with some Scriptures that I hope you will consider. I want to give you a godly warning in order to improve your walk in Christ. (And if you have any warnings for me, I would love to hear them.) Please meditate on the following verses on pride and put them into year heart.
“The one who gives an answer before he listens–this is foolishness and disgrace for him.” Prov 18:13.
“The first to state his case seem right until another comes and cross-examines him.” Prov 18:17.
“If anyone thinks he knows anything, he does not yet know it as he ought to know it.” 1Cor 8:1
You see, we should always have the humility and open-mindedness to consider all things. When the Scriptures say test things and hold on to the good, from our discussion here, I do not believe you have properly tested everything. I prayed that God will soften your heart to be humble enough to always seek of truth.
Grace and peace.